Welcome to the Travel Time Messages on Dynamic Message Signs.
My name is Jocelyn Bauer and I will be giving a brief introduction before turning this over to Bob Ruppert who we are pleases to have as our moderator for today's seminar.
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At this time I would like to introduce Bob Ruppert, the moderator of today's webcast.
He's the team leader in the operations office of transportation management in the headquarters of U.S. Federal Highway Administration in Washington, D.C., as such,
Mr. Ruppert manages the travel information program and services the 511 for federal high way. Mr. Ruppert also serves as the technical program coordinator for the office.
Previously, Mr. Ruppert was the project manager for the Traffic Test in Orlando, Florida as well as program manager for several other IPS projects dealing with traveler information.
He's been with federal highway since 1987, following turns with traffic systems installation contractor and the Virginia department of transportation.
Mr. Ruppert is a civil engineering graduate of Washington university in St. Louis, Missouri.
He's a member of the institute of engineers and the intelligent transportation society of America, ITS America.
Now, I'll turn things over to Bob Ruppert who will introduce our first speaker.
Thank you, Jocelyn.
Good morning, or good afternoon, I'd like to welcome you to the talking operations web conference on a topic we think is very interesting at federal highways and we're seeing a big trend toward getting better information out to people and better use of dynamic message signs.
We have three excellent presentations today, with a lot of good information.
Hopefully you'll ask good questions, again, just enter those in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen and we'll try to capture them and use them at the end of the presentation.
Our first presenter today is Kelly Langer.
She's the freeway operations supervisor for the Department of Transportation; she's also responsible for leading development of traffic plans and other information service projects.
She's been with the Wisconsin dot since 2000, and prior to holding this position she was the project manager in project designer for the Wisconsin department of transportation.
In that role, she was responsible for coordination of highway prongs and coordination projects with other units, specifications and estimates.
Miss Langer received her bachelors in civil engineers from the university of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.
Kelly.
You're free to take it away when you're ready, Kelly.
Kelly, you may have it on mute, you may want to unmute it.
Am I back in the call?
Yes, you are live on the call, ma'am.
For those of you who can hear us, we're actually experiencing some technical difficulties but we're attempting to get our presenter back on the line.
Hopefully she'll be with us shortly 23 you can hang on for a few moments.
Kelly, you may proceed.
Hello?
Kelly, are you there?
I'm sorry about that the phone went dead.
We're ready for you whenever you'd like to start.
My name is Kelly Langer, I manage the freeway operations center for the Wisconsin department of transportation.
And currently I'm going to give you a little overview of the area of Milwaukee.
And Southeast Wisconsin where we currently have the focus of our variable message signs.
We also have facilities in Madison, but currently we're not displaying travel times on those variable message signs.
The city of Milwaukee has a population of about 700,000.
WYCHI county itself has about a million people.
We have several heavily travelled core cores in and out of the city.
PowerPoint gives you an idea of the location.
We're right along lake Michigan and the location of Milwaukee with respect to the rest of Wisconsin.
The traffic management center for Wisconsin currently in the Milwaukee area, we have 36 dynamic message boards on the freeway and arterials.
We have about 125 ramp meters in the Milwaukee area.
And we have about 100 cameras in this area.
We just recently in June went from more of a 9 to 5 kind of operation to a 24-7 facility.
We are operating 24-7 at this point.
We also have the capability and access to the highway advisory radio system where we actually have a pretty extensive system in this area.
Have linked up all of our different devices, so we can broadcast throughout the region with one message on all the highway advisory radios.
We also have a pretty strong partnership with the media.
And in this area that we found valuable in getting the word out regarding traffic management.
We have a program in Wisconsin called the time program.
It's our traffic incident management enhancement program.
Currently we have bimonthly meetings, where we invite different partners from law enforcement and emergency services along with the toll operators and people interested in traffic incident management to come to the table and talk about issues relevant to them.
This time program has different sub committees, currently we have several different sub committees, special events.
Incident management, traffic management, where we're talking mainly about alternate route planning, we also have an outreach and a public information subcommittee under the time program.
And ITS allows the recorder to be viewed and operated as a single entity which aids in managing our congestion.
We found that traffic incident management, especially in Wisconsin is more about the partnership building than about the technology.
So we try to incorporate the technology into our time program, but try to focus on building partnerships and solving the problems at a low cost, in a low cost way.
Just to give you a little bit of background on the use of dynamic message signs in Wisconsin, back in '93 a local reporter started reporting travel times via airplane.
And that was kind of the start of travel time in this area, in '94 we started installing loop detectors to aid in calculating and producing the information necessary for travel times.
And in 1995, that was when we actually started publishing on a limited basis travel times on DMS.
We verified all of our routes and still do consistently, because we realize that getting information out to the motorists is a great thing, but it has to be reliable information.
And information that they feel comfortable with.
Back in the '90s, we were only using our VMS for travel times while the control room was open.
And because we wanted the oversite, we wanted the capability to be able to pull down those travel times if we felt they weren't accurate.
In '98 we improved the reliability by upgrading some of our computer equipment, and by '99 we added more DMS to our system and more travel times were included.
We also started in '99 posting travel times to our website which people have been really positive about travel times out on the internet, and it's a really good tool to get out to the motorists.
In 2000, we started feeling pretty comfortable with the information we had and how the information was being sent back to the DMS, so we started it displaying the travel times on a 24-7 basis.
And of course we continue to monitor the travel times and whenever there's a problem, and I'll talk a little bit more about our reliability in a minute.
We only display when we feel comfortable with the information.
In 2004 we started time of day travel times which means that we changed the travel times based on for instance for a commuter who was very comfortable with a particular route which happens during our peek periods a.m. and p.m. peak periods,
we display a certain type of travel time, where as the rest of the day we might be focusing more on people that aren't commuters that are not as familiar with the area, and some signs are changed based on time of day.
The different uses for our dynamic message signs, obviously travel times as we're talking about today.
We use them extensively for incidents and Amber alert is another activity.
We use them for special event planning and operations during special events and congestion information which goes along with the incidents in the travel time.
This slide illustrates a little bit about how our travel times are calculated.
We have in pavement detection and in the urban area and Milwaukee area, we have about a quarter mile spacing.
Rural areas are further apart up to 2 miles, that information has been collected.
The inpavement collection is detected in the field and it's sent back to the traffic operations center and then the travel time is calculated average speedy voided by known distance.
And they can insert travel times.
The variable message signs are dynamic message signs are updated every 60 seconds, our website is updated every 30 minutes.
We feel that every 60 seconds is a pretty good time frame.
If we're doing it any sooner it changes the message too often.
Much beyond that, especially during peek periods it can be pretty variable.
So we want to give as accurate information as possible.
All corridors in Milwaukee have at least one travel time, we have four inbound five outbound corridors.
Choosing our different travel times we use a process where we choose them by interchanges or by major cross streets that we have significant static signing where people would actually be able to follow if they had a map where that travel time ends, and obviously it begins at the sign.
Currently we have no data from probe vehicles, we use detectors and limited amount of micro wave detection.
This is the bottom half of the slide illustrates our web site, which we actually put out to the second whereas on the variable message side we're out to the minute.
And we round up.
Travel times will not display, this is an important element about reliability.
33% of the links are invalid.
So we require that amount of accuracy in order to put the information out.
And out on the internet as I said, it worked to the second and on the signs we're only average to the minute.
Now, the travel time distance, the more accurate it is, this is instinctive in that there's less variables when the shorter the distance.
There's less congestion, there's less incidents.
As the links and the distances get longer, the accuracy is reduced.
And we have a set 10 minutes for our server to be able to pulled information.
If the travel time is not accurate.
And we think the system operates pretty efficiently in that it will automatically pull the information and blank out the sign or go to a different message if we are using for either congestion or special event or incident management.
66% of the detectors have to be reporting data, at least one out of three lanes could not be working, and we can still use the other two.
Data extractor is a tool we developed some years back when we realized that we didn't know how accurate the information coming back to our center was.
And we had some questions on if our data was good data.
And we developed a tool where we can pull the data, put it into this piece of software and we can retrieve it for a lot of different reasons, for reporting purposes,
for retiming our ramp meters and for deciding if the information is going out to the variable message sign is good data.
And it's been a very valuable tool.
I want to talk a little bit about travel times, we've heard from different states that they've been reluctant to, based on accuracy -- I think that's another one of our obstacles that we have to continue to overcome.
We have someone drive our routes once a month, not all of the routes, but we randomly choose different routes and we have him drive them.
We're pretty close to within a minute on our routes.
I think the highest we ever go as far as the total time is 2 minutes.
And so we continue to have that person check the accuracy, we realize that's very, very important.
We try to get consensus to what people want on the variable message signs, we hear comments constantly coming back, why don't you post my travel time?
Well, we want to and we try to did what makes sense.
Any time we get an inquiry, we try to talk about it and decide, does it make more sense to change the travel time to that location and make changes constantly to the different routes.
We want meaningful travel times and another obstacle is basically what sits on the signs and often times there's better ideas on routes, but the information or the wording or that particular crossroad is too long to fit on the message board.
Once again, and I know I've said this several times, but confidence in reliability of the knelt work and software were allowing messages to be displayed.
Constant oversite.
We have to keep checking those to make sure we have verification of good data.
We never had a formal campaign when we introduced travel times to the public and to the media.
We have received a lot of really good feedback.
In the lower right-hand corner, the travel times help me determine which route to take.
When I get to the interchange if both routes are backed up, I can exit.
We give them a choice, we'll show them on the variable message sign two different alternatives to getting to a location.
And he can make his determination.
Maybe one of those is even to get off the freeway.
So we try to give the most information that we have available.
We never really have done any formal study on this, have only heard positive things.
Again, both about the website and about posting travel times.
Future plans for our travel times, and this is more of a current thing happening within the last month.
We are posting travel times on our highway advisory radio.
You see that in some other cities, kind of a text to voice deal where we chose several different routes in those corridors and people have access to the highway advisory radio and can check that.
It's another tool in addition to the dynamic message boards to be able to gain information.
We're still in the testing phase of that at this point.
But we think it's another really helpful tool.
Just some facts about our travel times in Milwaukee.
Our longest travel time is about 20 minutes in free flow traffic and our shortest one is about 6 minutes.
Anything short of six minutes is maybe not even worth putting up there.
I think that's kind of what we see.
Anything beyond 20 minutes, there's probably too many factors and too long of a time for people to even remember what it said by the time they get there.
Those aren't hard and fast rules, but they're pretty close to where we want to stay.
And again, 33 dynamic message boards and arterial dynamic message boards.
36 signs, and website.
Another great link that I talked about earlier where we can get the public involved.
We think dynamic message times in Wisconsin have been a great thing.
We've heard wonderful feedback about it.
But it's not easy.
It's not a system that can be left without constant oversight and constant operation.
And it takes some resources.
We feel there are resources and the time is well spent.
And we're going to continue to do it.
And we continue to change it based on feedback from other states and feedback from the public and from the media.
So I feel real positive about what we're doing in Wisconsin.
And we're going to continue on with the program.
With that, I guess I'll turn it back over to Bob?
Yep.
Okay.
Great.
Thank you, Kelly.
Excellent.
Getting a lot of good questions in here, so I think we'll have good discussion at the end.
Our next presenter, today is going to be Mr. Roger strain, responsible for the design and development of the software in use in San Antonio.
In addition to several other efforts, he's also performed design and development work for traffic management centers across Texas and Florida.
Roger?
Thank you, Bob.
Good morning, and good afternoon to all of you out there.
I'm glad you're able to join in with us.
As was said, my name is Roger Strain.
My first involvement was doing the travel time system.
I have a pretty thorough understanding of the technical background and how the system actually works in San Antonio.
I may not be able to bring the same sort of governmental oversite views that some of the other presenters here today can, but the more technical questions, I would be happy to dress.
Let's go ahead and start looking at trans guide itself.
Trans guide was deployed in the late '90s.
They worked on getting a database with travel speeds and travel time as cross the city.
This is drawn from a couple different sources of data.
Not only the assumed and segments of the freeway, where we have loop detectors and that sort of device.
But also arterial streets based on incidents and lane closures and experimental speeds that were calculated.
A lot that have data is not used so much now, but trans guide was thinking about travel times at that point.
A little more direct involvement was with the IBM.
This involves putting units in the cars that travel around the city to be able to provide route guidance and incident updates.
Data was sent to those using radio transmission and also the units themselves would feedback travel times to the trans guide center to allow us to see how fast cars were going and calculate the times.
One of the options, I want to get from this place to this place is shortest time based on those current travel times.
Unfortunately, as the project winds down, the units that were actually being use, manufactured by Alpine were no longer made.
So there's a lot of research that was gone into it and a bit of an investment.
In the end the actual equipment wasn't there to use any more.
So when we started looking at doing travel times, we had to look back to using the actual instrumental segments of the freeway.
The travel time on DMS project actually launched in November of 1999.
Another project from the MDI program, the data server was actually used to get the speeds from our sensor subsystem and provide them to the travel time system which could then make the computations, there's no actual formal outreach of going out
and having press conferences or posting messages up on the sign without travel times are coming, but there was a press release sent out on Friday before the system went live.
The system was activated on Monday so this gave people about a weekend to hear about it and know it was coming.
By sending out that press release, maybe 4 local youth stations put in an entry in their evening broadcast about the travel time program and how it was going to be coming into effect.
And we got a front page article in the local newspaper, the San Antonio express news.
All of this generated a largely positive reaction from the public when the travel times actually went live that following Monday morning.
The times themselves are calculated based on the location of DMS's, two major intersections and interchanges around the city.
There's not a particular algorithm that we use, but generally if there's an interstate coming up, people want to know about that.
Otherwise, the next major road that they'll be seeing.
The signs are calculated based on two different types of data.
We have loop detectors in the field where we have two loop that is can get the trap speed information.
And vivid video detectors which are now being installed.
It's fairly new to trans guide.
But they provided a very good source of data to add into the data used for travel time calculations.
The messages are only displayed on our actual main lane DMS's, we have smaller DMS's that are set off to the side, but those are never used this travel time displays.
They run from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., 7 days a week.
And on the trans guide website which I can type in for you after the presentation if you're interested in taking a look, the same algorithm
and the same processes are used to display travel times to the web surfing public who may want to know before they even leave the house which way is going to be the best.
The algorithm that we use is based on point speed.
We have known detector locations but we all know the speeds at those positions rather than knowing how long it took someone to get from one position to the next.
Because of that, the way we calculate this is to imagine that there is a link between one detector and the next in the field.
And we look at the speed of each of those detectors that averages across each lane.
Whichever detector has the lower speed, we'll take that and apply it across the entire distance.
This does tend to give us somewhat pessimistic view of how fast traffic is really going, but the decision of trans guide was that if people get out there and they see travel times that say they should be there in 7 minutes but it takes them 8 or 9, that will be annoying.
But if they see it's going to take them 7 minutes and they make it in 6 1/2, you're doing better than traffic thought you might be doing.
That's not a bad thing.
This has been applied for the distance between the section and the interchange, you add all the time together and have you your travel time.
Sensors are approximately a half mile apart in most of our instrumental segments which gives us a pretty good level of detail to know what's going on at each part of the road.
As far as displaying the messages, during nonpeak hours, you'll see them sitting out there all by themselves telling you how long it's going to be.
During peek hours we have more things it going on.
A lot of times congestion messages will be used.
The examples shown up there, there's congestion coming up between the Roarsboch and crossroads roads.
Originally it was just showing congestion use caution or congest croon ahead.
But the public really did not like that at all.
They said, I can see there's congestion, what are you doing about it?
By putting the limits on there saying the congestion is from this road to this road and then also adding the travel times to the second phase of that message, the public has had a much more positive reaction, and they now see, okay, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Sometime this gridlock is going to let go and I'm going to get where I'm trying to go.
Whatever incidents occur, these also can be used with the travel times if desired.
If the operator doesn't want to include travel times, the moment they say send this incident message, it will override the travel time message with no questions asked.
However, if they want to, there's a button available on the operator's buoy that says, add travel times to this message.
Suddenly what was just a message saying there's an incident on the left shoulder now says there's an incident here, and here's how long it will take to get through it.
As I mentioned before, the public reaction travel time has been very positive.
Both television and radio stations around the city make heavy use of trans guided websites to get travel times to report both in their news reports and traffic reports throughout the day as well as to display on their own website.
Some sites will use the data from our website and incorporate it into their own, some provide links to the trans guide website, if you need any traffic information, this is the best resource to go to to get it.
Another benefit of using travel time messages on signs is that one complaint that the public usually had before travel times went live, you've spent so much money putting these signs up over the freeway, but I never see you use them.
Why did we spend money on this.
By having travel time messages up in, the public sees, yes, these are being used and they're providing a valuable service, because I know how bad traffic's going to be in front of me without just seeing congestion ahead.
And tech dot has a policy that only traffic related messages should ever be displayed on dynamic message signs.
Travel times fit into that policy just like a glove.
Regarding accuracy, when we're first developing the system, we investigated some possible predictive paradigms that could try to handle noticing,
the time on this link has been getting longer and longer, maybe we should get to the point of it being longer by the time the person actually finishes traveling across it.
Or hey, things are getting faster now, maybe we should guess a little low.
The problem is, traffic is such a dynamic and ever-changing phenomenon, that trying to compensate for things getting faster or slower is just as likely to be wrong as just leaving as what the current calculation is.
The decision was made that it really would be best to just calculate it based on the current data and know that there's going to be sometimes when things do get slower, there's going to be times when things get faster
and really that's just out of our control for all of the additional costs it would take to put in a good quality predictive algorithm to benefit the number of times it would make a difference is very small.
After the systems with installed we send out drivers to make sure the calculations were being done correctly.
Results showed that about 85% of the drivers came in within the travel times being predicted.
One of the differences is that trans guide shows a range of time.
We'll say the travel time is 5 to 7 minutes or is 20 to 23 minutes rather than giving just one number, we give a range so that if things do get worse, it's still covered.
Whenever the actual travel time numbers are calculated, we'll set the bottom of our range to be the number that was actually calculated.
If it says 5 1/2 minutes, we'll set five minutes as the base of the range, and we add two minute to the top of it to give ourselves pretty good cover and make people actually have the best chance possible of arriving within the time we calculate it.
The test runs that did not come in within that range that we've calculated was almost about even between coming in early or coming in late.
Really, that's about the best can you hope for.
If you're getting it where the majority of people are spot on with what you're saying and the rest of them are missing a little ahead or a little behind, that's really what you're trying to get.
As far as the public's confidence in travel times, trans guide periodically puts surveys on its website to ask people how are we doing?
How are things going out there?
Are we doing this right?
Whenever the surveys have been put out, more than 85% reported back saying yes the travel times are ago VAT and we do believe in it.
Whenever something is wrong or there's a particular message that's coming back with incorrect travel times regularly, people actually will call in to trans guide and say, something's not right on this sign.
It's been working before, but now it's off.
That gives the trans guide people a chance to go out and correct the problem.
For the investment required for the travel time portion of trans guide, it was comparatively small.
Trans guide itself has had more than 140 million dollars worth of equipment, telecommunications, sensors and so forth involved in the entire project.
The travel time program part of that was about 60 dollars for the initial development and integration of the development process and made another 10,000 dollars since then.
We already have traffic sensors in the road, we already had signs on the freeways sark they're yo processes to put messages out and take them down as necessary.
All we need to do is put the travel time piece itself into place.
That meant it was a short time to develop it and a fairly small cost compared with the rest of the system.
Originally it seemed like something that would be pretty neat to do, but not a mission critical item people would rely on, we wanted to make sure operators didn't have to babysit us all the time.
The system will automatically recalculate and update messages when needed and it checks that every minute.
Once the operators have said display travel times across the system.
They don't have to go in there and update the messages themselves at all.
As we said earlier, incidents happen and they send out an incident message.
It automatically overrides the travel time message.
When the incident's done, that one is taken down.
The travel time message comes back automatically, this means that adding travel times has had a very, very low impact to the operators who actually run the system throughout the day.
After having travel times out in the field for more than five-years, all we here about are -- well, we hear a lot of complaints when things don't work right, because people expect it to be out there, if the travel times aren't on the website, the media let us know immediately.
Whenever they're not right on the signs, the public calls in.
And in fact even in areas that haven't had travel times before or that have them now but don't have them because we have equipment out due to construction, people complain about that too.
The people in the media expect these travel times to be out there now, they rely on them and they need them to be accurate.
Something that initially seemed like, just say, yeah, that would be nice has really turned into a core part of what the public expects trans guide to apply to them.
I'll have to admit, government agency concerns, this is a little bit out of my area.
If you have any questions in this part, I would direct you to the traffic management engineer at trans guide.
His contact information is at the end of the presentation.
He wanted me to put out here that we have provided this data to the private sector at no cost, and we have information sharing agreements between trans guide and those private sector entities but there haven't been any examples of marketing the data, trying to sell it to people.
While predicting congestion and weather delays using travel times can be done if you try to archive the data and compare it against the current data.
Trying to predict incident delays would be very difficult because obviously incidents don't happen on a regular schedule or have varying things that usually happen at this time of year versus this time of year.
So the predictive aspect is there, but it's really not as much of a benefit as would be needed to outweigh the costs that would be involved in trying to get this large archive of data and find something useful to do with it.
The current investment in the travel time program is pretty small as we looked at earlier and the benefit for that cost has been very, very high.
However, trying to do more predictive efforts toward the travel times or trying to figure out how long delays will last, that would be a more significant investment and at this point trans guide does not see the benefit in trying to make a large investment in that direction.
Regarding construction zones which right now if they've got the pavement torn up, the sensors are out of commission, we can't put travel times, like we said, the people want their travel times, so to try to address that,
trans guide has started putting in micro wave radio detectors in these construction zones so we can go ahead and put them back up there on the signs to keep everyone happy.
These units are poll mounted on the right-of-way line and can see traffic up to a 200 foot range.
Since we don't have a necessarily strong infrastructure since everything's in construction, wireless radios are used to send the signals out into the construction zone back to nice firm ground.
In the future, trans guide is going to be looking into doing intercity travel times, perhaps between San Antonio and Austin or Houston.
Because we have a lot of toll roads and managed lane project as cross the state, electronic toll tags are getting a large penetration in cars here in Texas.
Using those tags we would be able to install more readers on highways between cities and calculate these travel times and post them on the last 1 or 2 signs as you leave the town.
Another option that we're looking into is using travel times to show alternate route times, the large effort underway right now is to work on getting toll roads in place, and the biggest benefit to a toll road is that you're going to get where you're going faster,
by computing the travel times on the toll roads versus travel times on the freeways, those messages can be posted to encourage people to use the toll road when it's necessary or stick on the free lanes when it's not that bad.
I-35 which is chronically congested is being worked on and we want to encourage truckers to use the bypass rather than the main interstate.
The best way to encourage that is by providing travel times on the interstate versus the bypass,
we've taken a look at trans guide from where they originally came with their travel time programs to the deployment and the public reaction of travel times in San Antonio and where we're going to be going in the future.
If you have any other questions, I'll address what I can at the end of the presentation.
Otherwise, feel free to contact myself with technical questions or Brian Fariello.
I thank you all for your attention and I will pass this back to our moderator.
Great.
Thank you, Roger, good presentation.
We're still getting good questions in.
Remember, lower right-hand corner enter them in there and we'll use them here after our next presentation.
Our next presenter is miss Brandy Meehan.
She's in the office of transportation management.
Primarily works on issues related to travel information and vehicle infrastructure integration.
She holds her bachelors and masters in civil engineering from the university of Tennessee.
Brandy?
Thanks, Bob.
Dynamic message signs are one of the most visible forms of ITS.
Thousands of people drive by them daily and have the potential to be influenced by their traffic or safety related messages.
Nationally, there's over 4500DMS signs deployed.
This includes deployments on freeways and arterials as well as on portable signs.
Over 330 million dollars has been spent on DMS hardware alone, these costs don't include communications or the supporting structure or the cost of construction.
So this cost can easily double if all that is considered.
However, in many cases, signs are often left blank or they provide vague or unchanging information.
And sometimes as this photo shows, they can provide information that has nothing to do with transportation.
This leaves the traveling public questioning the value of the deployment.
To address this issue, in July of last year, the FHWA released a practice memo on the use of DMS, if you would like to read that memo it can be found on our website on the link that's given on your screen.
The stance that we are taking is that blank or darn dynamic message signs are a transportation investment that's not being fully utilized.
In areas that experience congestion or where traffic conditions are unreliable, we encourage travel time messages to be the default information provided to motorists.
This is instead of providing no message or using vague messages on the signs.
States or cities should not wait until they have full network coverage before posting travel times, in other words, it's okay to start small with maybe one or two sign as long one corridor.
In fact, many of the cities who post travel time messages now are doing so on a relatively small basis.
For example, in Nashville, Tennessee, they began posting travel time messages on only two of their 20DMS.
They do have plans of expanding to new signs later this fall, but they felt starting out small would allow them to test out any kinks that would occur and see if this works.
We also recommend that no new dynamic message signs be installed in metro areas or along heavily travelled core cores unless the capability to display travel times exists.
To improve the traffic time messaging, a workshop was sponsored for practitioners, it was held in Atlanta, Georgia.
As many of you may know, GDOT was one of the first agencies to post travel time messages back in 1998.
They operate over 80 dynamic message signs in the Atlanta area and travel time messages are their default messages on all of their signs.
Initially, though, back in '96, when DDOT first began posting DMS messages, they used traffic indicators such as traffic moving well or moving very well on their signs.
These messages were not at all popular with the drivers, and this is what led them to begin posting time based messages.
12 agencies were represented at this Atlanta workshop.
The attendees listened to presentations from Wisconsin DOT, from Kelly, who you've just heard from, from Georgia DOT and tech agency on their travel messaging system.
However, the bulk of the time was spent on discussing the issues and obstacles related to travel time messaging and learning about how other agencies dealt with those issues.
The next few slides I'm going to summarize some of the main issues that were discussed at the workshop, and how these issues were addressed by those cities who are already posting travel time messages.
In some cases, DOT management or staff may be reluctant to post travel time messages for a whole host of reasons even though they may have the capability to do so.
They may feel that the messages would be a distraction to the driver or that the driver may grow accustom to the sign always being on and then be less likely to pay attention to other more urgent types of messages.
However, the positive response seen in other cities by both the traveling public and seen by the media can help disPell those fears.
Accuracy is a message is very important.
Very important to work through.
Research has shown that an accuracy of around 80% of the actual travel time is good.
But 90% is ideal as felt by those cities that are posting travel time messages.
To compensate in travel times, many locations will post a range as you heard from Roger, for example the sign may read to downtown 8 to 10 minutes instead of using a discrete number saying to downtown 9 minutes, this allows for some inaccuracies in the data.
Constructing the travel time message is dependent on the sign characteristics, small signs cannot post long descriptive messages.
Seattle has small signs deployed on their freeways and what they do is they simply post the location's name and the number of minutes to that location and the sign looks very similar to the location distance sign that you see all along the interstate highway system.
The use of qualifiers such as approximately an estimated should not be used.
Drivers typically understand that the travel time given on the sign is that, an estimate.
And adding that to the sign only makes the sign more difficult to read and could confuse the driver.
Also, a lot of the cities recommended that you use the same set of destination for each individual sign in order to help a driver to avoid driver con fusion.
In selecting the destination to be used on a particular DMS, it's most effective to choose the exits or locations that service the most people.
And some areas have looked at their planning datas for the origin and destination data to see which exits actually draw the most amount of people and post to those exits.
If the segment link is long say greater than 10 miles, it's recommended that general destinations be used, for example, to say travel times to downtown instead of saying travel times to a specific exit downtown.
And then also to provide updates on any intermediate DMS along the way.
Maintenance costs for travel time algorithms are best folded into other programs like detector maintenance and TMC software upgrades.
This is because it just helps to get it paid for.
Also it's best to have the travel time messaging system to run automatically, that way no additional TMC stuff are needed.
That's so that TMC staff can only be there to monitor the system in case any problems were to come up.
Otherwise, this system runs on its own.
The complexity of the travel time algorithm does not buy much improvement to the travel time estimates.
Most DOT's as you heard from Kelly and Roger have the simple algorithm that uses the average speed from sensors along the lengths.
The development of the travel algorithm is also best done at the same time that other upgrades are occurring in the TMC software.
Again, does it facilitate paying for this system?
Other states may be willing to share their software with the public agencies wanting to do travel time estimating.
Georgia has made their software available to several state who is have modified it and used it in their system.
Posting distances along with the travel times can help to reach out of town drivers.
In Orlando, where they have a lot of tourists, Florida DOT uses delay times instead of travel times boards to reach the out of town drivers.
However, in most cases, travel time messages are mostly aimed at commuters or local drivers.
Travel time messages should be the default message when no other important messages need to be displayed.
In general -- and this is no hard and fast rule -- most states seem to prioritize messages in the following order.
Incidents come first, followed by work zones and Amber alerts and then travel time messages.
Followed by special events and safety campaigns.
Public outreach is very important in order to avoid confusion, when the travel time messages begin.
There have been in substances where traffic has slowed near DMS signs to read the travel time messages.
Of course, this is not good and there's some safety issues involved with that and one way to prevent this from happening is to do outreach in the days before the system kicks off.
One of the city's posting travel time messages and I cannot recommend which one it was, but they did an outreach campaign that on their dynamic message signs before posting travel times, they displayed the travel time messages coming in X days.
And it was a countdown for the number of days until travel time messages came.
And they did this to build up some suspense for the travel time messages.
Public reaction to the messages have been very positive.
Informal web surveys done in Seattle and Salt Lake City have shown that over 85% of the responses have been positive.
In Atlanta there are complaints when the messages aren't posted.
People have grown accustomed to travel time messages in these cities and they expect them.
The FHWA is trying to raise awareness for travel time messaging and to promote better uses of dynamic message signs.
To do this, we have developed some case studies and to highlight how Houston, Nashville, Portland Oregon and Chicago do their travel time messaging.
The case studies can be found on our FHWA operations website.
And that website is listed on your screen, and also in this month's IT journal there's an article on travel time messaging to raise awareness.
And from all the material from the workshop that I just talked about can be found on the ITS America website at the links that's also given on your screen and I'll give it at the end of my presentation as well.
Finally, this graphic shows in orange the locations that are currently displaying travel time messages on their DMS.
There are 19 locations in all.
If we've missed some place, please write us and let us know.
The yellow dots are locations that plan to post travel time messages within the next year.
Here's my contact information and if you have any questions, offline, please feel free to contact me, and I look forward to hearing your questions.
Thank you.
Great.
Thank you, Brandy.
That concludes our presentations, now we'll go into questions and answers from the folks.
We've had a lot of good questions come in.
Some were answered throughout the presentations also, so I'll direct some of these to specific presenters and some of them to all the group.
One of the questions that did come up, I was wondering you could address the sensors that are used in how you calculate the average speeds.
Roger mentioned they use a mixture in San Antonio between the loops, the dual loops and also they're anything video detection.
I was wondering if you could talk about the center technology and the calculation of average speeds in Wisconsin.
We actually poll our detectors every 20 seconds and then we actually average the speed over a known link.
The links are variable.
Some are longer than others, but we know the distance for that particular link and we actually -- that's how we get our average speed.
But our speeds are actually polled every 20 seconds.
Okay.
And you just have loops as sensors?
We do right now, we're starting with going into the micro wave, but basically our major infrastructure.
Okay.
We had a number of questions coming in talking about if you will, either verifying the performance of the system, or checking the accuracy of the data, checking the times, I was wondering if the presenters could talk to how you verify the accuracy, is there a formal process?
What are the resources you use?
Are there dedicated personnel for that?
And if in fact the systems are running automated, how do you know if a bad message goes out?
Maybe start with Roger on that?
Unfortunately, I'm not at trans guide all the time any more, so I don't have a firm knowledge of whether they're doing ongoing testing out there.
But I would certainly imagine that the people as they're coming in to work are themselves keeping an eye on the signs to see, how, does this seem right?
I know I do every day whenever I go out to work.
Again, I don't really know about whether they have an official formal process for going out and verifying those.
With regard to knowing, if you have bad data out there, obviously if the sensor is not reporting anything or is reporting zero speed, can you assume that there's something wrong with that.
And the travel time system that we have does have a threshold where if you have too many of those over some percentage, I don't know what it is offhand, then it will say no there's not enough data here, I'm not going to display this message, because I can't be sure that it's right.
If you're getting values back, this isn't going to go ahead and put it up there, regardless of whether it seems slow or fast.
If you don't trust the hardware that you have out there to report back good feeds, you probably don't want to be putting an automated system in place, you need to believe that you have good hardware that's supporting good values.
Okay.
Kelly, any reaction to that?
We actually have someone that drives the route and reports back to us.
Once a month we try to report back as many as we can.
I know I talked to the folks in Atlanta.
And they actually use their cameras to try to verify their travel times and we've looked at that as being a possibility.
Although in many of our corridors, we have a lot interchanges, and it's hard to follow one specific car on a camera when you have a lot of variables, people getting on and off the free way. we founded that difficult to do.
So we've gone to the stand by the old stand by method of getting someone out there in a car and driving them.
Obviously, like Roger said, when people are coming in to work or are operators and are engineers look at it too, but we do have a process in place to verify that.
Okay.
We had a couple questions or a couch el questions came in talking about the hours of the day of operation.
I think both of you talked about it, when you were showing the signs or showing the travel time messages themselves.
I wonder if you could talk real briefly.
If you notice any additional wear to the signs itself.
Is there any operating or maintenance costs, any bulbs burning out?
Have you detected any of that or is that a concern?
Obviously, when the travel times are up there 24-7, there's going to be additional wear on the signs.
We haven't noticed a major increase, though, it hasn't been a noticeable major increase and we feel even if there is some additional maintenance, which there's going to be, the benefits outweigh that cost.
Okay.
Roger, you have anything to add from San Antonio's perspective?
Unfortunately, that's again outside the area I know much about.
After we put the travel time system in place, that one of the maintenance guys came over to me and said, hey, your program's causing our signs to burn out quicker.
But that's about the extent of my knowledge in that area.
Okay.
A couple questions came in asking about there are high occupancy facilities, HOV lanes or where freeways are divided, maybe you have a local or express type of situation, almost a dual type freeway,
do either of you or any of the presenters have experiences about how to display times when there's dual time zones within the same facility?
San Antonio doesn't have any HOV lanes to speak of.
But we have some interesting topography in the downtown area, we have some freeways that are split between upper and lower levels, so you may have three upper levels it going eastbound and 3 upper lanes going eastbound and two lower lanes going eastbound.
The way that our travel time system handles that, if you're going to travel from one side of that flip to the other side, it actually will look at both the upper and lower,
calculate the travel time for each side of the split individually, and then average those two times together to make it seem as though it were one individual link.
Now, obviously if there is an accident on the upper level or lower level, then you would run into problems about getting odd times where it's halfway slow, but generally if there's something like that,
there's going to be another message on the EMS anyway constructing motorists that there's an accident on one level, please use the other one instead.
Kelly, do you have any experience with that?
We don't, because we have neither one of those factors in Wisconsin.
This is Brandy.
In Atlanta, Georgia, the Georgia DOT does display HOV travel times, but they use historical travel times for the HOV lane to show what savings you would incur if you took the HOV lanes.
But again, it's historical data used.
Okay.
Some questions had come in asking about whether you have specific DMS that are dedicated exclusively to displaying travel times and if not, you know, how do you go about prioritizing the messages, what are the priorities you have?
Just wondering if you have that and also, is there operator intervention there, is it automated or how do you determine travel times versus other messages.
We actually in Wisconsin have a process of different levels of messages, and travel times are not our first priority.
23 we have an incident that's a major incident that becomes our first priority.
However, there are times when we go to two phase messaging, where we may display a travel time and we may display a message on the second phase.
This comes more into play with Amber alerts, we find Amber alert is our second level of we find of importance after a major incident.
And if we had Amber alert, we'd also try to display travel times as a second phase on most signs.
And we don't have signs that are dedicated just for travel times, we use all of our signs for all purposes.
And our travel times are always our fall back.
If there's nothing else to display in the sign, we display travel times.
Roger do you have any Input on travel time messages.
Travel time messages are the default.
Any time an operator tries to put any other sort of message up there, you know, the system would first look to see, is there another message on the sign?
If it's a travel time message, it will go ahead and put the new message on top of that, rather than trying to ask the operator, well, which have these do you want to have?
Really, travel times, travel time messages are used across all of the Main Line signs, but they can be overridden by anything else without any sort of extra intervention.
Brandy, do you have something to add?
I wanted to talk about the dedicated sign, there was a question asked about that.
So far no one in the United States is doing a dedicated sign.
But it's being done in Europe and Australia, and New York state is in the process of deploying signs that will be dedicated to travel times and so they'll be fixed signs and the only thing that would change on those signs would be the time, the travel time.
It seems like a good idea to us, and we're for that, but we also want to see travel times used on the DMS's already in place.
Okay, thanks.
Kelly, you mentioned about going to some dual phase messaging and I think Roger did also, have you all noticed any problems with the dual phase, the traffic slows down, there's a problem with people having the time to read the messages?
And similar related question to that.
Just in general when you first started putting up travel times or something, did you notice that the signs themselves essentially caused the congestion?
Any reaction to that?
People bring that up.
I've heard that several times at different discussions about travel times and we really don't see that and we really didn't see it when we first started displaying our photograph times,
one of the things that I think we tried to do with all of our message boards is place them in an area where people have as much advanced warning as possible in order to see the message board.
And if you're coming over the crest of the hill, it's probably not the best place to put a message board.
We actually moved the message board from a location because we thought it was causing some problems.
So we've heard that, but we really haven't been able to validate that information.
We think that there limited amount of slowdowns in Wisconsin because of the posting of travel times, back to the two-phase messaging, it's always something you have to consider as far as the amount of information.
And there's been research done on the amount of information being able to be provided on both overhead message boards and portable changeable message boards, which we never go to a three-phase message.
I've seen three-phase messages in different locations outside of Wisconsin, it's not something we do.
It's just too much information.
So every time we do a two-phase message, we make sure the messages are short enough.
And that people can read them in the space provided before the message board.
Okay.
Roger, any Input from down in San Antonio?
I think one of the point that is was made just then is important, make sure the signs are located where people have enough room to actually see it for a good way, because sometimes you do have to put more information up there, and having more time to see it is going to help things out.
One thing that I personally think -- now, I was not here in San Antonio for a long time before the travel time messages started posting, once those messages were up there, people got used to there being messages on the signs
and the constant knowledge that yes there should be something up there has really alleviated any problem that may have been there of people stopping to try to gawk at the sign.
Additionally, when people see the travel time signs, when they get used to it, they learn what the sign looks like, so whenever travel times are added as a second phase to some other message,
they'll either see the other message and take a look to see what it says or they'll see the travel time message and recognize it, and just grab what information they need off of it, without having to read the entire thing every time.
That relates to other questions we were getting, both of you kind of talked about this, maybe we can go into more depth now, how do you craft the messages for not only the local drivers, you mentioned who know what the signs say
and are looking at the changes in the nuggets with the unfamiliar drivers, the tourist type driver, the person that isn't through the area quite as much.
Have you looked at crafting the messages differently for those type of audiences?
I think we have.
I want to pop back just real quick to the last question, we actually did have a Stein in one of our corridors where we had one particular person continuously contacting us about thinking that the slowdowns in that area were because of our message board,
and we don't usually do this, but because he was very, very persistent over a long period of time we blanked the sign for a week, just to verify that, in fact it wasn't the case, and we found that it wasn't.
The same slowdowns happened, it was based on geometrics and not on the sign.
So now, can you tell me what your question was again?
Yes, I was wondering about the knowledgeable and unknowledgeable drivers coming through.
How you look at those.
We do the time of day where we look at the commuters who are going in the a.m. and p.m. peak both in and out of the city respectively, and we use more of a downtown approach.
More of a landmark approach to our travel times, for instance, going into the city in the morning we'll say 10 minutes to downtown or 10 minutes to the stadium.
Where as when it's not peak period, when it might be more people from out of town using the system that aren't as familiar, we try to use crossroads that are available on the static signs, these are on the overhead message boards or would be readily available on a map.
So that's kind of how we differentiate.
It's difficult to do often.
Often times, but we try to use the peak periods for commuters and the nonpeak periods for times when other people would be using the system.
This is Brandy.
Again, in Georgia, the DOT there uses distance ahead and they format their signs, the top line would read to the destination.
And the second line would give the distance ahead in miles and then the third line would give the travel time.
And they figure that that allows for nonlocals to figure out whether or not that's a good travel time or not.
I think the only real consideration is just to try to make the most commonly used destinations be the interstates so people are more likely to be looking for or to know about
and if there aren't nearby interstates to direct you to, then find the nearest major road, that at least is a likely candidate.
There's not really a big consideration given between commuters versus visitors?
Okay.
I had a couple questions come up, dealing with portable changeable message signs.
I wonder if the presenters have experience posting travel times on those?
We have two locations in Wisconsin that we're currently in the process of currently being -- we started two weeks ago trying a smart work zone approach in our Madison area for about a mile and a half segment of resurfacing project,
but it's it's actually a smart work zone that has the capability to calculate the travel times in that area.
We also have another very rural area where we are planning to, within the next several months do the same thing.
We have over 100 portable changeable message boards in Wisconsin, and we use those only for incidents and we do not post travel times on those.
I believe trans guide has just recently started using portable DMS's, but as far as I know, there's absolutely no intention of putting travel times on them.
Okay.
Sort of related, a question about that, because the portable message signs are a little bit different, usually a lot different in size than the ones particularly over a freeway.
Do you have I? r any experience with different signs, how do you structure the messages differently?
Another question related to that is there any experience related to posting travel times on arterials, dynamic signs on arterials?
We do have some limited amount of message boards on our arterials and we do post travel times on those, and they're smaller message boards instead of overhead.
Have you to look at what destinations you're using on in because you have less characters to use.
But we do use arterials for travel times also.
San Antonio doesn't have any arterial signs and almost all of the signs that are used are 3x18 matrices, we have one sign downtown that's 3x15 and it's just been a matter whenever these messages are put together,
you figure out what's the largest amount of space that that travel time is going to be able to take, and make sure that whatever message you put on there doesn't Sao seat the width of the sign.
And Kelly, all your signs are the same size or...
Pretty...
3x21 and all of our arterials are the same size and all of our overhead on the Main Line are the same size.
Okay.
Going back to maybe a little more fundamental question.
What was the inspiration for posting travel times to start with.
I know that Kelly, you mentioned about the traffic reporter doing travel times, was that the inspiration for the department of transportation, was it the boss coming in and saying, we need to do travel times, more of a grassroots efforts?
I was wondering if you could all talk about the Genesis for providing the travel times on the signs?
For us, what pushed us to put travel times, we're having blank message boards and a lot of complaints when we first put those on.
I was talking to our federal highways rep last week at a conference and he brought up the fact that for over a year, we had message boards that we did not have travel times and received a lot of complaints, people felt, you know,
my taxpayer money is not going to a good source, and they felt like why did we pay for all this infrastructure and they didn't see it used.
Obviously it was being use for incidents but not everyone is driving at that time.
So that really was the factor to push us.
It was complaints of having blank signs.
And that's where it started.
And once we started doing it, we realized, well, why not?
People like it, we receive great feedback about it.
There is some upkeep to it, but we think it's well worth it.
Okay.
Any Input from down in San Antony, Roger?
Unfortunately, that falls outside of my area of expertise, I was told we want travel times, go make it happen.
But I wasn't really privy to the decision making that led trans guide to decide it was time to implement that project.
You were the doer?
I was the doer.
I made it happen.
Whenever one of the messages was wrong, I'm the one that gets the flack for it.
Okay.
Maybe Kelly can talk to this a little bit.
I was wondering, is there a most common complaint?
Everybody mentioned that the public likes this and all, but is there a common complaint you get that seems to be a little more prevalent than others?
I really can't think of one particular one, although sometimes when we have posted a particular travel time and people get used to that travel time, and then we change it for whatever reason,
we thought it would be better used in a different way, we'll receive a lot of calls, people get dependent on it.
You know, the other big thing is, it's still the blank message boards.
There's maintenance problems, there's times when the VMS are not working and we receive complaints about that pretty consistently.
People get dependent and it's one of the things when you're looking at posting travel times and actually putting up dynamic message boards, once you give them that information,
once you give them the option to have that piece of information, you have to be able and willing to follow through and be consistent and keep giving them the information.
I suppose that's the most prevalent problem that we hear.
Okay.
Another question related sort of back to the sensors and how you judge the data.
And this one relates more to the -- perhaps if an incident were to occur within a zone where you have detectorization
and maybe the best way to phrase the question would be if you have detectors within a common zone that are showing greatly different amounts of time
or greatly different data, how do you address that in the algorithm, is there a threshold at which point you start throwing out the data, within the zone itself or is there an incident that kicks in there?
Maybe Roger could talk to that since you were the doer.
Sure.
At least with trans guide, you know, between each pair of detectors along the freeway, we assume that to be one link.
We're not going to have any extra detectors between there.
And we'll look at each individual link and look at the first detectors and look at the last detector, and obviously, there's no others in between, and take the lower speed between the two of them.
That way if there is an incident and traffic's starting to back up, it's going to be more likely to take the slower speed and apply it across the whole thing.
It's perfectly reasonable if you look at a 5 mile segment to have the first three miles be free flowing and then have it all of a sudden crawl down to 15 or 20 miles an hour as soon as people hit this wall of cars that's stopped.
There's really nothing wrong with having data that looks like that.
But as long as you actually treat each individual segment of freeway as its own independent entity, you shouldn't run into problems of having -- most of it's the same, but there's this one that seems a little ominous.
It could be that's really what it is out there, and that gets back to making sure you have good equipment out there that you trust the data coming from.
Kelly any reaction from Wisconsin.
Roger explained it perfectly on the different links we have and pulling the data.
We pull pretty often, so it's not like we go 10 minutes in between pulling the information from the doe teachers.
So we feel that the information, even with an incident in the area has 20 second data.
And we do handle links very similar to what Roger was explaining in Texas.
Okay.
Related to perhaps the incidents and the construction messages and others.
Almost getting into the prioritization of the messages and the use of the signs in general, have you all noticed any -- because the travel time messages are displayed so often as a default message.
Have you noticed the signs are becoming less effective than when there is incidents or construction information out there is the public becoming more used to just seeing the travel times and are starting to almost overlook when it's not the travel time, when an unusual message now pops up?
I think it's a really hard thing to measure.
You can say instinctively maybe that's the case, however, when you get used to seeing a certain amount of characters on your VMS every day and those drastically change,
which would be the case when you're displaying incident information versus travel time information, it's almost like a flashing light to people.
And we do not flash our VMS by the way, and so we feel that they can tell the difference between what would be an incident related message and travel time related message.
You know, the information is there, we can give it to them.
We can't make them read it.
But we think they're pretty smart and they can distinguish.
And again, people start to rely on the information so they start to look at the message boards more often.
Okay.
Going a little more back toward the technology, I know we talked about the video detection, I was wondering if either of you have looked at -- I know Kelly mentioned you're not using the pro-vehicle types,
is there anything related to reading toll tags or license plate readers, have either of you -- do you know if your systems have looked at doing that?
Actually, trans guide for a time did have support for doing AVI travel time calculations, but recently the entire AVI system was taken offline because we have real loop detectors in almost every area that AVI detectors once were.
For a time we were using that and we had capability in the travel time system to use that as though it were just another travel link as we have with our loop detectors.
For now that's been turned back off.
I don't think there's been any sort of investigation into doing license plate readings here in San Antonio.
I don't think Texans take too kindly to thinking the government is snapping pictures of their license plates.
Kelly anything to add to that?
We don't currently do probe data, we realize it's probably the next technology, the technology of the future.
More so for our 511 application.
Right now, we currently don't have 511 in Wisconsin.
And we're looking at a short term probably in the next year implementation of 511, and because we have such an extensive system in the Milwaukee area, 511 is needed more in other areas than it is in Milwaukee.
So we realize that it's going to rely in the rural areas on some form of detection besides loops, we can't install loops on every location outside of Milwaukee, or at least we're not going to put the money into the infrastructure to do so,
so we know that probe data is going to probably have to be used for our 511 application outside of Milwaukee, at that time I'm guessing we'll probably be looking at using that data for information for more rural applications, maybe using changeable message boards outside of Milwaukee.
Again, we're just in the planning stages, and currently we're not using probe data.
This is Brandy.
Houston's trans star does use toll tag data to do their travel time messages, if you want more information on that, I'd encourage you to look at the Houston case study we have on our website.
Okay.
We had a couple questions come in dealing with the FHWA recommendation about dynamic message signs, only to be installed where the capability is going to be for providing travel times.
And does that then imply that someone should start looking at data collecting?
I wonder if Brandy would talk to that a little bit?
Sure, the question was whether or not it was a mandate to do this.
And no it's not a mandate that travel times be posted on a dynamic message sign.
It's a recommendation and we feel strongly that drivers want this information and that this is a good way of getting it to them.
And yes we do encourage the installation of detection in areas where dynamic message signs are going, so that travel times can be competed and put on the dynamic message signs, no, it's not mandated.
There was also a question that came in wondering if FHWA would pay for dedicated travel time signs.
Brandy?
Yes, as part of the regular federal funding can be applied to buying and installing those signs.
Okay.
I think we're starting to wind down a little bit here.
I want to remind everybody that there have been some good questions and good responses, good dialogue on the chat itself.
That will be captured and will be available on the website.
Certainly all this information will be there as well as the presentations themselves.
In fact, I think that's about it.
We're starting to lose a few people, dropping off.
I think we addressed a lot of the people's questions coming in.
I want to thank everybody for participating, we particularly want to thank our presenters.
There were some excellent presentations, a lot of good information out there, as Brandy mentioned we have also recently provided some case studies on our website.
With that, I'll turn it back to Jocelyn as our host.
Thank you all for participating.
And look on the Entalk talk's website for our next seminar coming up in the beginning of October.
Thank you and good-bye.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your participation in today's conference.
This does include your presentation, you may now disconnect.
Have a good day.
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